Covering U.S. Foreign Policy with Liam Cosgrove

Liam Cosgrove is a DC-based correspondent for The Grayzone, an independent news website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on politics and empire. 

With much of the mainstream media being pretty aggressively pro-war in its coverage of Ukraine, Liam has stood out for pressing both the Administration as well as Members of Congress on the conflict in a way that tries to get to the deeper truth of what is going on. 

We talk about Liam’s career trajectory and what it’s like to be the odd man out at these briefings, the Ukraine War, the presidential election, political influences and a little bit about the JFK assassination. Liam comes from a bit of a libertarian background while I look at most things from the left, but we found a lot of agreement when it comes to US foreign policy and strong concern about the risks for escalation with the Ukraine War/Russia, up to and including nuclear war.

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@cosgrove_iv

Website
https://thegrayzone.com/

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Transcript

Kevin Maley: [00:00:00] Welcome to Zipcode Zero. Today's guest is Liam Cosgrove. Liam is a DC based correspondent for The Gray Zone, an independent news website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis of politics and empire. With much of the mainstream media being pretty aggressively pro war in its coverage of Ukraine, Liam has stood out for pressing both the administration as well as members of Congress on the conflict in a way that tries to get to the deeper truth of what's going on.

Kevin Maley: On the show, we talk about Liam's career trajectory and what it's like to be the odd man out at these briefings. We talk about the Ukraine war, of course, the presidential election, political influences on him, and a little bit about the Jehivke assassination. Liam comes from a bit of a libertarian background, while I look at [00:01:00] most things from the left.

Kevin Maley: But, we found a lot of agreement when it comes to U. S. foreign policy and a very strongly shared concern about the risks for escalation in Ukraine up to and including nuclear war. To quote JFK in his speech about de escalating tensions with Russia at the height of the Cold War, In the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet.

Kevin Maley: all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal. Enjoy the show. As always hit, like, subscribe and share with your friends. Thank you.

Kevin Maley: To kick things off, if you could just Kind of briefly talk about your background, who you are, the kind of work you do

Liam Cosgrove: so I started out I started out really with not a huge political interest at all. I would say COVID and the lockdown sparked [00:02:00] my engagement back into politics. I was, I was kind of raised somewhat libertarian. But my dad really just encouraged me to be a, you know, a critical thinker and ask questions.

Liam Cosgrove: But we are definitely libertarians, but in college, I just kind of lost interest in politics. Didn't really talk, talk about it too much to think about it. And then in, during COVID, I was working in property management for my family's company and learning this was in San Francisco. So learning the laws and things of the SF property world to me, there were just some laws that were just so absurd.

Liam Cosgrove: So I began thinking like, Oh my God, like this, this is how things are governed. This is pretty out of control. And then of course the lockdowns hit. And, you know, I didn't want to get the vaccine because I was like, well, this is a new drug, you know, and I'm clearly not at risk for COVID. So why would I, you know, get this new drug when there haven't been long term tests?

Liam Cosgrove: And I remember getting in arguments with my friends about this, about, because to me, the rationale was so clear you know, [00:03:00] that, that it should be my right to not get something like this. And there could be unknown risks. But my friends were all, are all pretty, like, left leaning, and were just bashing me for it.

Liam Cosgrove: And eventually they got sick of arguing me, with me about it, and I couldn't get them to argue. So I, I started, I wanted to voice my rationale, so I started writing op eds in my spare time. And blasting them out to various publishers, like The Federalist, and Brownstone Institute, Zero Hedge, and Mises Institute.

Liam Cosgrove: And that sort of landed me... That, that kind of, I built a portfolio that way and I was able to get a job at the Epoch Times where I was actually later fired for asking about, I was pushing the boundaries at Epoch Times a lot, if people don't know them they're kind of like populist conservative, but they're very hawkish on foreign policy, they're like very, they're very, they're like vehement anti communist because they were founded by this Chinese dissident who impressive guy, actually the founder, you But they are so vehemently anti China [00:04:00] that, you know, they're, they're kind of like pro military industrial complex in a way.

Liam Cosgrove: And I kept pushing the boundaries. I went to the state department. Gonzalo Lira, if you've seen that clip, is this American citizen who's still being detained in Ukraine. This American citizen who was arrested in Ukraine for publishing material that was very critical of Zelensky and his regime.

Liam Cosgrove: That was literally all he was doing. I mean, it was very harsh critiques, but after all, he's an American citizen. He had, he, he lived in Ukraine before the war broke out. So that was his residence. And Zelensky's the the SBU, which is kind of like Zelensky's FBI, just one day showed up at his house and arrested him.

Liam Cosgrove: And, when I found out about this, it got very little Western coverage. But when I found out about this, I was like, oh my God. And this is when I was at the Epoch Times, and I said to my boss, can I cover this or ask the State Department about it when I go over there? And my boss was like, there were a lot of examples of kind of like, me getting you know, censored on, on, when it, when it leaned into like anti Ukraine stuff.[00:05:00] 

Liam Cosgrove: But this one was just, he, he said, no, no, we're not interested in covering that. That one was just too egregious to me. Because it was obviously so newsworthy. I mean, they had, they're imprisoning one of our citizens over there for just, you know, publishing material online. And so, I just went ahead, and I kind of already had been talking to Max Blumenthal at the Grayzone, so I just went ahead and asked the State Department about it, without permission from Epoch Times, and that basically led to my firing there.

Liam Cosgrove: And then now I'm at the gray zone where I have a lot more editorial freedom, which is great. And that's kind of my, that's kind of my journey into, into reporting. 

Kevin Maley: You would have to get your questions pre cleared before asking at the state department, or is that just for that particular instance, because you had already had a conversation about it before?

Liam Cosgrove: Not so initially, no, initially, and this is part of my. This is part of just kind of the trajectory that I took at epic times. Initially they sent [00:06:00] me and, and it was all good. I could ask whatever I wanted, but the first time I went to the Pentagon I don't know if that video is still on Twitter, but it's somewhere on my Twitter.

Liam Cosgrove: Like I went to the Pentagon and I actually thought I did really well. I asked a ton of questions about like why we're not negotiating in Ukraine and stuff and epic times. Like I said, they're kind, some of them are like kind of pro U. S. military. And then some of them are just very like, kind of like self conscious and nervous, because they had their congressional badges revoked when when Trump was president because the body that, the body that regulates who gets congressional passes Is kind of dominated by left wing mainstream media and so they they were kind of wrongfully bullied out of that circle So they had this self consciousness and this timidness where they're like, oh, we don't want to ruffle any feathers so That was that was why I had to get my questions approved because they were like Liam, you can't go and ask a bunch of questions.

Liam Cosgrove: We [00:07:00] we don't want We don't want to be seen as rude or flippant or whatever, which I didn't think I was being but That was the rationale they're like don't ask Whenever I suggested a question that was like very critical of our ukraine policy. They were just like no, no, please don't ask that and it came from both of those two angles.

Liam Cosgrove: It came from one. They're kind of Light on their feet, not wanting to ruffle feathers. And then two, they are they are really hawkish on foreign policy. So, you know, nothing that paints China favorably is allowed and kind of the same with Russia too. So 

Kevin Maley: you go to the, so you're ready. The gray zone now and you go to the State Department or DoD and you ask these pressing questions that most of the mainstream media don't.

Kevin Maley: You know, I was just reviewing a couple before we signed on, you know, a good example is when that dam was destroyed and. Ukraine, the, I think it was the Ukrainians who said it was the [00:08:00] Russians and then the U. S. corporate mainstream media just kind of repeated that blindly. I don't think the Biden administration ever explicitly said it, but they kind of let that vote out there.

Kevin Maley: But that's just an example of, I saw you pressing the State Department. I don't know if it was, it might've been the Pentagon on that. That was Pentagon, yeah. 

Liam Cosgrove: Pentagon. So a couple, a couple of interesting things there on what you said. So your, your point about the, the Western mainstream media kind of immediately regurgitates that it was Russia, but the Biden administration is timid on whether to actually state it.

Liam Cosgrove: That is like, that's just the playbook on all these things because they don't want to be on record once it, once, once the evidence comes out, if the evidence comes out that it was actually Ukraine, they don't want to be on record saying that. And the same thing happened with that village that Got struck with the, with the drone the other week.

Liam Cosgrove: It came out that it was Ukraine and I was kind of searching through, did anyone say this and Blinken had sort of hinted at it, but Blinken hadn't, no one emphatically said, yeah, this was Russia. Oh my God. Because they know that it could be [00:09:00] Ukraine and they don't want to get caught with their pants down later.

Liam Cosgrove: So that's just a funny kind of element. They, they leak it like they're anonymous officials will leak it to the media, but they won't say it in public, you know, so they have that cover but some, some inside baseball on the. Coke of a damn question that you're referring to that was that was my first question at the Pentagon under the gray zone So that was like right after I left epic times and went to the gray zone and that question And then actually one subsequent one where I asked Sabrina singe about Price gouging there was a former DoD official accusing them of price gouging that question and you can watch it the questions like Very polite.

Liam Cosgrove: There's no arguing back and forth. I just asked one follow up. Pat Ryder, the, the you know, the spokesman there, didn't, he didn't call on me for like four or five straight press briefings after that one 

Kevin Maley: question. Yeah, I was going to ask about that, if you get repercussions. 

Liam Cosgrove: That, yeah, and that was such a, that was such a minor question, I thought.

Liam Cosgrove: And I was happy to be at the Gravesland where I could actually [00:10:00] ask these things, but then I kind of realized, oh no, like, You know, now I'm getting skipped. Also, it could have been that I was at the gray zone. Like, you know, these guys behind closed doors probably hate the gray zone. There I remember actually another inside baseball thing.

Liam Cosgrove: One of the, one of my colleagues at the state department there heard when I've had first switched to the gray zone I asked a question, I forget which one it was, but he heard them kind of get in a huddle afterwards. And he heard them go like, oh, he's with the gray zone. And then, and then Matt Miller was like, oh my God, I didn't even know.

Liam Cosgrove: But, but luckily they have kept calling me. I tried to like, behind the scenes, I try to stay cordial. And actually what I did with Pat Ryder, the general, I actually sent him an email and I was like, I forget exactly what I said, but like, I was like, it's kind of annoying. Cause you kind of have to grovel to them.

Liam Cosgrove: And I was just like, Hey man, you know, I'm new to this. Let me know if, you know, I'm doing the formatting cool and he, he, he responded. He was very nice. He said he would call me. We never actually had the phone call, but he started calling on me again. [00:11:00] So we're all good now. I've been playing it cool for a while.

Liam Cosgrove: And, and, and sadly I've been, I've been busy with another project, but I'm. I'm hoping to get back into it and turn the heat up a little bit to see what I can push the boundaries here. Cause, cause, to your point, no one in these rooms, for the most part, is asking these questions, so it is very uncomfortable to be the only one.

Liam Cosgrove: But, as long as I can, like, you know, I don't mind as long as I can ask them. Because it is, it is kind of a cool opportunity

Kevin Maley: just a couple things on that. One thing I've noticed that I was curious about, if it bothers you at all, the, at least some of the State Department clips I've seen where you've asked questions, the spokespeople, they're very snide in kind of, in their responses.

Kevin Maley: You see that in White House press briefings too, and that's common in any administration if someone's asking a question they don't like, but does that ever get under your skin, like they're a bit dismissive and snide and kind of rolling their [00:12:00] eyes at you? And, and I guess just to build on that, they're Gaslighting a lot and just kind of bullshitting, you know, maybe never quite 100 percent lying, but yeah, just seeing, you know, you ask a very reasonable question about this or that and that no one else would ask.

Kevin Maley: And then they kind of roll their eyes at you and dismiss the question. And then, yeah, you're not allowed to do a follow up. 

Liam Cosgrove: Well, that that's that's kind of their job. I mean, when you're when you're a government spokesperson, your job is to. Deflect and you know, not if the job is to basically lie without lying because you don't want to get caught lying But you definitely don't want to give the real answers So what's well it is it is super frustrating because like Matthew Miller at the State Department does this to me a lot?

Liam Cosgrove: I think it's gotten a bit better I've tried to like tone down my hostility and just stick with the I've tried to get like less kind of like anxious and [00:13:00] And like, I don't know, I've never been hostile, but I'm trying to get less kind of emotional and more you know, come more prepared and stay calm because that way he, he won't cut me off or get as nervous.

Liam Cosgrove: But yeah, I mean, it sucks when, when, when I asked about Gonzalo Lira, which I'll probably do again at some point. He just, he just like, he's like, I don't know anything about it. Let me call on somebody else. And I'm not the only one who does that too. Like even to some people who aren't asking very challenging questions at all.

Liam Cosgrove: They still do that sort of thing. Like if they don't want to answer. They just give the bullshit and they move on. What's interesting is Matt Lee at the State Department. He's like the AP reporter and he's actually very good. So a lot of times he's interested in stuff that I just frankly don't find interesting.

Liam Cosgrove: Like but I mean, I, I, I'm unique cause I'm like, although I think everyone should be like this. I, you know, I'm terrified at this prospect of nuclear war. And like this crazy policy we have over in Ukraine, like getting very close to a direct war with Russia. And then [00:14:00] Taiwan, God forbid, that just never happens.

Liam Cosgrove: Cause I, I think we'd be even crazier on that front. But so to, to me, that's why I'm asking about it every day. But Matt Lee rarely asked about it, but he, cause he's AP and cause he's just been there, I think his whole career. They really give him a ton of leniency. I mean, like, if you know, do you know who I'm referring to, Matt Lee?

Liam Cosgrove: He just gives them so much shit and they put up with it. I don't, no. Oh, okay. He, he, he gets the, for some reason AP at these press briefings gets the first question every time. I don't know, I don't know where that comes from or how that was precedent was established. But so he gets the first question every time.

Liam Cosgrove: And he can give them as much shit as he wants and they'll just put up with it. He's actually in a couple of the Grayzone clips that we've posted of mine. Where he, where he kind of follows up on what I was saying. Which is always nice because they, they will cut me off and move to someone else, but they never do it with Matt.

Liam Cosgrove: And then like at one point I was asking about just NATO expansion and kind of like, they act like it's this innocent [00:15:00] thing and it's like, well, countries voluntarily joined, who are we to tell them no. And I kind of made the analogy like, you know, what if, what if Mexico did that, you know, how, how would that be okay.

Liam Cosgrove: And then the state department guy was like. Well, that's a hypothetical, you know, I'm not going to get into that. But then matt lee luckily came in and he was like, well, hold on. That's not a hypothetical, you know, cuba did that cuba hosted Entered an alliance with the rush with soviet union and they hosted nuclear missiles there and we almost went to war over it So 

Kevin Maley: yeah, we invaded with cuban dissidents didn't succeed 

Liam Cosgrove: but that's right.

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah the bay of pigs and and so and it's that's so it's great when matt lee jumps in on things like that and he is actually very good like he's He's willing to, you know, challenge them the official narrative, unlike his AP counterpart at the Pentagon, who every, every question she asked, her name is Tara cop.

Liam Cosgrove: Every question is like, like, how are we going to get weapons there faster? And like what are we doing to crack down on information leaks after, you know, Jack text, Sarah was, was [00:16:00] arrested for leaking to his discord channel. So anyways, yeah that's, that's basically the What's at play there in the, in the different departments, but why do you 

Kevin Maley: think the U S press corps is so pro war jingoistic and sort of subservient to power?

Kevin Maley: I mean, you saw it with the invasion of Iraq. You saw it when we were, when Biden was pulling out of Afghanistan, there was the media had been very, very pro Biden up to that point, but there was just hysteria on CNN. These other networks about how gassed they were, they're like crying on the, on the air about, you know, pulling out of Afghanistan and then Ukraine.

Kevin Maley: I feel like the majority of the questions that I've seen are in that vein of what you're talking about. How, how can we get weapons there quick enough at the beginning? All the questions in the White House press briefings were, why aren't we putting on a no fly zone? And then one after another, they all just kept asking the same question.

Kevin Maley: It was bizarre, but there's no [00:17:00] fear of. Nuclear war like you were talking about a moment ago, which terrifies scares the shit out of me, but the the press corps It's just they're eager for more conflict and more war. What is it? I mean being kind of among these people. What is your it's Assessment 

Liam Cosgrove: on that.

Liam Cosgrove: It's very bizarre Everyone of course or like not everyone but in I imagine our circles, you know You hear people talk about operation mockingbird, which was definitely a thing there were congressional hearings about it, and the CIA did, you know, co opt journalists to get their agendas out there. I think to some extent that could be still at play.

Liam Cosgrove: I, I think what people discount is the amount of it that happens organically. Like, there are just a lot of... kind of like weak spined people there who are just doing it for the job or they're doing it because they like the idea of being a journalist so they just kind of show up and like at Epoch Times, this is a good example, my boss at Epoch Times one of them [00:18:00] was kind of like this woman who's like, she, her, she, she believed like this kind of thing of like journalists are just supposed to be like neutral, we should not have an opinion on anything which I think is kind of a flawed perspective, and I think no one, like, it's like impossible, so it's, it's a stupid standard, your standard should be the truth, your opinion to me, like, you know, you shouldn't like repress your opinion as if you could even possibly do that, but anyways, she's the White House reporter for the Epoch Times, she's And like her articles are like, I see them occasionally and it's like, Joe Biden went to the dentist today and got, you know, a good report from the dentist.

Liam Cosgrove: And it's like, okay, yes, you are being neutral and you're telling people what happened, but like you have, like, did you ever think for a second to be like, okay, well that's what, why did you even write that? Cause it's just so not newsworthy. So like. There are people like that who are just kind of like brain dead and just go along with this machine that's already self perpetuating.

Liam Cosgrove: So and then a lot of it, like in terms of what [00:19:00] you're saying about, like when they asked the question, why aren't we doing a no flies on what, you know, I think it's because they literally buy all the journalists have bought into the story that like Putin is a really singular evil today. So like to them.

Liam Cosgrove: Like, so they genuinely believe that Hitler's evil. So to them, they're asking like the right question to them. They think they're like holding the government accountable. Like, why aren't you guys getting weapons? They're faster. Because they just, I think they just don't know the history of like the U. S.

Liam Cosgrove: overthrowing the government of Ukraine in 2014, at least helping to, 

Kevin Maley: yeah, and everything is Munich to them and people on the Hill. That's the only history they seem to know is 

Liam Cosgrove: Munich. Yeah, I, yeah, so I think, I think that's part of it. I, you know, I'm sure there's some like, there's also the The aspect of like, if you want, a very easy way to get ahead in that career, is to, is to play ball with like the official narrative, and you know, [00:20:00] what, you know, your anonymous officials that you quote are kind of always bolstering the regime, and that's how you get the awards, and that's how you get like a job at the Atlantic, and all this stuff, so Whether it's, whether it's Operation Mockingbird or you just want, or you just want to call it kind of like simping for the regime, it's like, a lot of that is like organically at play where it's like the journalists, it's not like they're like secret undercover agents, but they're just people without a lot of intelligence and without a lot of moral backbone who like you know, wants to do well in their career, so they'll report favorably and kind of ingratiate themselves into the into government.

Kevin Maley: Yeah, and I feel like there's probably also the social pressure aspect of it, just D. C. being a very kind of incestuous town.

Liam Cosgrove: So when I'm in those rooms, I am always like a little uncomfortable because I feel, I know I'm the odd one out. I'm going to ask the question that's going to annoy everybody. Like, you know, so, so that's another thing too, is like, you have, like, if you're going to actually do [00:21:00] the job of like taking, of, you know, reporting adversarially to the government, you have to have a You have to be able to, to like do on, you have to be able to, you have to be okay with uncomfortableness of like, you know, annoying someone pissing someone off.

Liam Cosgrove: And sadly, just most people don't like that. Like when the, when the, when the Pentagon or when, when the press secretaries flip out on somebody, you know, everyone's like looking side to side and like giggling and being like, Oh God, Oh shit. So yeah, there's kind of just a basic social element of like humans are social animals and they want to Like you're saying, they're, they're around these think tanks, they're around the people who work in government, and people want to get along with their neighbors.

Liam Cosgrove: So they end up just kind of coalescing in opinions as well 

Kevin Maley: and literally going to parties with each other. I mean, I You're probably familiar with the book this town by Mark Leibovitz just talking about all that. Oh, you should read it It's I mean, so it's written about 10 12 [00:22:00] years ago But it's just kind of mapping it starts out at Tim Russert's funeral and talks about all the media people the political people there and then just kind of maps out in a very comedic fashion how you know, this person who works in the media is also married to a lobbyist whose brother in law works at the Pentagon, whose daughter, they just got a job at the state department or, you know, blah, blah, blah, and then a revolving door between it all.

Kevin Maley: Like you go from the white house to MSNBC to back to the white house if there's a 

Liam Cosgrove: Democrat. So is that, is that a nonfiction book? Yeah, 

Kevin Maley: it's a nonfiction book. It's a really good book and it's 

Liam Cosgrove: a pretty light read. I'll check that out and that it yeah, I mean that that sums it up very well how you just said it's like the the marriages and you know the the nepotism it's and it's just it's just sad it's like it's it's sad when when you think about it because it is this huge web and it just seems so difficult To untie and like in half the country, you know, if you try to explain this to half the country, you know, you're, [00:23:00] you're a conspiracy theorist and an alarmist.

Liam Cosgrove: So it's, it's, you know, the solution on how to unwind all that. I have not a clue. I guess on the bright side, the Republican Party, for me as a libertarian, it's been good to see the Republican Party become a lot more libertarian lately. And Do you think they are though? I mean 

Kevin Maley: Not fully. Not fully.

Kevin Maley: It feels a little selective. To me, like I know they're, they had that weaponization of government committee, which I think was actually shining a light on some disturbing practices on some of the collusion between the tech. That's probably a bad word, but just working together between the government and the tech companies and pulling people off Twitter and that sort of thing.

Liam Cosgrove: But yeah, you can, you can call it collusion. I think 

Kevin Maley: I just feel like that word has been abused. But I, I did want to turn to, to the Hill, speaking of the Republican Party, and we were talking about this right before we recorded, but the, the ignorance of some of the, the literal ignorance of some of the people on the Hill in [00:24:00] Congress shocked me.

Kevin Maley: So you had gone up to Jamal Bowman, he's a representative, a Democratic representative from Westchester County. I think the district tips a little into the Bronx too. He's very, very liberal. He's when he got in, he joined the squad. You went up to him very politely and he was he was very polite to you and sort of friendly and you asked him, about the Donbass and Crimea, and he openly said he had no idea what they were, and literally had no idea what you were talking about, but he said he supported, I was just watching this before, so I wrote it down, he said he supports the war in Ukraine because Putin is a madman, and then you asked him why the war started, he said because our foreign policy is crap, and then talked about the military industrial complex, but every time you asked him why he kept voting for money, I don't think he's voted against any of the The funding to go to Ukraine, and he just sort of got agitated at you and was asking you why you were even asking 

Liam Cosgrove: [00:25:00] him that.

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah, I mean, I mean, so yeah, he, he was very friendly at first. And yeah, I mean, interest, it was, it was very, he just didn't really know what he was talking about. But that, but that's kind of part of the problem is like, 

Kevin Maley: It's shocking. I mean, you don't know what the Donbas and Crimea are, and you're voting to send tens of billions, over 100 billion authorized, to fight this war and you don't even know what the hell is going on on the ground.

Kevin Maley: I mean, yeah, that floored me when I saw that. 

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah. And I was thinking about actually just because he was, I think that day he was maybe like the, the third person I tried that on. And I forget the answers I got on the other two, but I remember one person, like, didn't have time to talk to me. One person, I think, knew what they were, and either had to go or something, so I didn't get anything interesting.

Liam Cosgrove: So, it only took me three tries to find some, a member of Congress that didn't know what the Don't Bust in Crimea were. So, I've actually been thinking of going and doing that again, and making a montage for some of the lesser known [00:26:00] guys. But and maybe, maybe even some bigger known guys. But no, it's crazy.

Liam Cosgrove: I mean, he, the, the reality is, He just knows nothing about the war, and you hear his response, his initial response of why he supports Ukraine, it's like, well, Putin's a madman, you know, that's just a given, we all know Putin's a madman. So even Bowman, like, it's just how effective kind of the propaganda is, like, like, so many people just believe.

Liam Cosgrove: that in February of 2022, Putin out of nowhere just decided to take over all of Ukraine. And if that's what you believe, then the reaction kind of makes sense. But like, they haven't even done the most cursory research into why the war actually started. And then when you try to like, You know, when you give the rationale for why the war actually started, I remember once I was talking to Hu, Hu Zhenga, I forget his name, but he's another member of Congress.

Liam Cosgrove: You know, I explained the rationale about NATO expansion, like, you know, holding, and he's like, And I was like, what do you think about that rationale? And he's like, Oh, you mean Putin's rationale? And I was like, well, I, I get, I mean, [00:27:00] it's just, yes, he does hold that rationale, but what do you think of the rationale?

Liam Cosgrove: And he was like, well, no, it's ridiculous. So, you know, Putin holds it. So it's this really just like elementary level thinking that, and then what's funny is, as you point out, he later says, what, what do you, our foreign call, our foreign policy is crap. It's because of the military industrial complex.

Liam Cosgrove: So it's like, it doesn't even, it doesn't even compute with his own beliefs. Yeah. There's a cognitive dissonance there. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, there's a tension there of just not making sense within his own brain. He clearly hasn't thought about it. Bowman I think is somewhat of like a, I get the feeling from him that he's like a genuine guy, but he's just like a super dumb left wing populist.

Liam Cosgrove: Who, who is, yeah, I 

Kevin Maley: think just wants to focus on domestic policy, 

Liam Cosgrove: right? He's, he's big on domestic policy. He's a total showman. Like if you've seen him yell at Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massey, those clips that went viral, like he just, like, he, he is a bit of a showman, so he's a bit of a charin too.

Liam Cosgrove: Like, same with a o C. Yeah, I mean there's just, [00:28:00] there's no excuse for that. I mean, like, like you can't steal billions of dollars from the American people and go send it over to Ukraine when you can't even name like the two most crucial regions to why the war started. It's just, it's despicable.

Liam Cosgrove: He's stupid. Like, I don't think he's malicious, but it's still. An excuse to do that. Does 

Kevin Maley: the uniformity of the Democratic Party on this war surprise you? I mean, just, looking back to the nineties when NATO expansion first started.

Kevin Maley: There's a real divide in Congress and in the Democratic Party about that first wave of NATO expansion, and I think it was 1999. When it was going to Poland and I think Hungary and Bill Clinton's defense secretary, I guess, threatened to resign. He didn't end up doing it, but even George Kennan was against it.

Kevin Maley: . But now they're just blindly following everything that the white house says yeah. Is that just partisanship? I mean, if this [00:29:00] were Trump, would they be up in arms? 

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question about Trump.

Liam Cosgrove: I, it is interesting. I, there's one clip I have. I got this when I was still at Epic Times. And this was another reason they, they fired me because they didn't want me going on Capitol Hill after they reprimanded me for the Gonzalera thing. I talked to Ilhan Omar, who and this is another pressure point I should be pushing because I, I should go try to find her on the hill.

Liam Cosgrove: I forget what I asked her, but something was just in the news and, and I said maybe it was the cluster munitions or something. I saw a clip 

Kevin Maley: of you asking her about, you had talked with Jerry Nadler. That's right. And he was a little ambivalent about whether we, Ukraine goes into Russia or something.

Kevin Maley: Then you ask Han 

Liam Cosgrove: Omar about the economy. Yeah, that's that's right. That, that was, that was the one I was trying to remember. And Ilhan Omar was like whoa, no, I actually like she didn't really make any emphatic claims, but she was like, Oh, you know, that actually would make me feel a little, a little uneasy if Russia was or if Ukraine was specifically targeting Russian soil.

Liam Cosgrove: So it was really good. It was, it was a little hopeful to [00:30:00] see that from people like, from kind of the true populists like Ilhan Omar. So she's someone I hope to talk to again. When I get back on the hill and yeah, but in general, I have kind of why there's so much conformity among the left. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes on like.

Liam Cosgrove: You know, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, how they get people in line. I do think that it's kind of inherent, it's, it's inherent to the whole left, right spectrum of like, you know, the people on the left are collectivists, but that's kind of the idea of, you know, left wing politics is you're a collectivist, you believe in socialist policies, things like that.

Liam Cosgrove: And therefore you're willing to kind of, you know. subvert your integrity a little bit to kind of help the greater good, whereas right wing people are more individualists. And so they're going to speak up if they see something that doesn't sit well with them. I, I think that's generally could also explain it.

Liam Cosgrove: But 

Kevin Maley: I would say the majority of the Republican house and Senate [00:31:00] are so very, very pro war. Actually, I don't, there's probably very 

Liam Cosgrove: few senators. I mean, I mean that, that speaks, I think to the power of like, You know, the defense lobby. I'm just saying the reason you are seeing at least a few on the right, I would imagine is like, you know it, it could derive from that, you know, sense of, of individuality and like you know, let's, let's tend our backyard here and not go police the world and all this stuff.

Liam Cosgrove: I don't know who's like responsible for that. I think Ron Paul Trump a little bit maybe. But it's I don't know. You know, you just see a lot more dissent within the Republican world than you do in the Democrat world, and I, I've just kind of had that thought of kind of like, well, you know, it kind of makes sense because Democrats are collectivists and, and Republicans are individualists.

Liam Cosgrove: And I guess 

Kevin Maley: there's something to be said for the history of sort of liberal and humanitarian intervention from the Democratic Party as a sort of world project from Vietnam to some of the humanitarian interventions in the 90s to, [00:32:00] I think we had said Libya was a humanitarian intervention What's her name was leading that up forgetting her name.

Kevin Maley: She, she was big on responsibility to protect Samantha power. Apparently she had been big on, but it was a, you know, we've got to do it for the, the good of the world kind of thing, which obviously didn't turn out too well. Yeah. 

Liam Cosgrove: And I, I have no idea that, you know, the people at the top, but like, I have no idea how much they believe that behind the scenes.

Liam Cosgrove: That's something I often wonder 

Kevin Maley: about. I think they do. I think they 

Liam Cosgrove: 100 percent believe it. I think some of them do. Like I, I, the spokespeople, I think the spokespeople that I talk to do. But when I think of like Dick Cheney, 

Kevin Maley: Oh, I don't think he gives a 

Liam Cosgrove: shit about it. Yeah, I was thinking more like Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, and you know, like Chuck Schumer.

Liam Cosgrove: I don't know about Samantha Powers too much. But yeah, I mean, But on the collectivist thing it, there, That's not totally true, obviously, because there are a bunch of there are a bunch of people on the far left right now who are totally against these wars. I think a lot of the people who watch the gray zone are kind of like [00:33:00] far left.

Kevin Maley: It's basically what I am. So I come from the left but disaffected with the Democratic Party. I don't know if I've ever been fully aligned with the Democratic Party, but come at it 

Liam Cosgrove: from the left. Do you come from like the, cause there's all, there's guys like Jackson Hinkle who are like, and Caitlin Johnstone, who are like a hundred percent communist.

Liam Cosgrove: And yet like the totally opposite ideology as me. But like, I'm totally happy to ally with them to save, you know, to avoid destroying the world. So that's to me, it's the most important issue by far. So I could care less about economic stuff right now. Yeah, 

Kevin Maley: I agree. How do you think the war will play out just as someone who's been keeping a close eye on it?

Liam Cosgrove: Oh man. I mean, I, I've I, I've thought about that and I try, I try to like think of, of, of ways that there could be an off ramp. I mean, it's great it's great to see a majority of Americans now not supporting weapons anymore. It's great to see Poland coming out and saying like no more weapons from [00:34:00] us.

Liam Cosgrove: I. Wasn't that over grain? 

Kevin Maley: My understanding was Ukraine. That, that wasn't a huge. Yeah. They had been flooding Poland with grain because they, you know, because of trade things with the war going on and Poland has an election coming up and it was cut. It was hurting Polish farmers and sort of fed into a larger dispute.

Kevin Maley: It was not as. Principled anti war, as it was initially reported. Yeah, no, 

Liam Cosgrove: yeah, no, that's a great point, and I haven't, I haven't read too much into that, but I did hear that, which is also a very funny rationale. It's like, oh, you guys are reducing the price of grain too much. It's just from a libertarian standpoint, that's also just very frustrating, like, protectionist policy of like, god, we gotta keep the price of grain high to support our, you know, our, our farmers here.

Liam Cosgrove: But, so, you know, at the expense of the consumer. But, I forgot what we were talking about. Oh yeah, so, that's one way I hope it could end, like I think, I think basically what'll happen is, hopefully, the pressure just becomes [00:35:00] such that and you know, people like, like psychos like this guy Elbridge Coolby if you know him, he's from like the Marathon Institute or whatever.

Liam Cosgrove: He's this vehement anti China hawk. But he's also a huge proponent of getting out of Ukraine so we can focus out of Taiwan. Oh 

Kevin Maley: yeah, that's an interesting perspective I've seen a lot of. Against Ukraine so we can focus on China. Yeah, which which pair for the war in 2025, 

Liam Cosgrove: which is a very scary thing, but at least that would, you know, get us out of Ukraine.

Liam Cosgrove: So, so that's what I think is made. The dissent, I think, might build to a point where it looks untenable or like maybe, you know, there is actually some like competence somewhere in the Pentagon in the CIA of like, or like competence and like a little humility where they go like, Okay, maybe we shouldn't, you know, risk destroying the world over this.

Liam Cosgrove: But so what I think will happen is the narrative, like, and this will just be so frustrating and sad to see, but the narrative I think will start slowly seeping [00:36:00] out. And it'll be like, you know, hope, like hopefully maybe it'll start with Crimea. Hopefully they can negotiate Crimea or whatever. Slowly but surely you see the narrative seep out of like, well, you know, I guess it's okay if they take Crimea or the dome bus or whatever.

Liam Cosgrove: And then the American public will probably come to accept it. And the reason it's so sad is because nobody remembers that that was the whole deal before the war started. You could have, you could have held referendums in those regions and you would have never had a war. And nobody would have died.

Liam Cosgrove: And you know, but the morons, like, I mean, this was another thing. I give it example in the very beginning of how I would argue with my friends and then they got sick of arguing. So I took it to writing. Ukraine was a big one and this was Ukraine war started before I was even at epic times. So it was pretty wild how I ended up.

Liam Cosgrove: At these briefings, it was kind of a lot of luck, but it's a 

Kevin Maley: fast track 

Liam Cosgrove: it was very lucky and fortunate because the epic times had a small dc team and I was willing to move and but yeah, I know I just remember like I just remember arguing with my friends like, [00:37:00] like a week into the war.

Liam Cosgrove: I, I, I didn't know much about Ukraine, but I did my homework in that week. And I was like, wait a second, you know, the, these regions in the East, they actually don't want to be part of Ukraine anyways we could have held referendums here and like, you know avoided all the bloodshed and then I remember I saying like literally a weekend of the war I said something like which is like that's probably gonna be the best outcome they could hope for anyways is like you know keeping all of Ukraine except for these two regions because like for some reason no one computes like at the end of the day Russia has nukes so if you if you think if you think Ukraine a non nuclear power is gonna somehow evict or subjugate the two million Russians who are in Crimea 

Kevin Maley: And what are their most strategic military bases at 

Liam Cosgrove: Sebastopol?

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah, I think it's their one warm water port or whatever that they've had since the 1700s. If you think they're going to give that up without just using nuke, like [00:38:00] you're just, you're just not, you're just insane. You're like, you're not living in reality. So it's, I, you know, it's, it's, there's just a cognitive dissonance and I'm, and I, and I think We might hear those sensible narratives get like slowly seeped in the mainstream discourse.

Liam Cosgrove: I'm kind of forgetting where, but I know I've heard that on, on somewhat mainstream media lately. Like a pundit will come out and be like, well, you know, there might be some territorial negotiations, which like you never heard in the beginning of the war. So. Yeah, it always 

Kevin Maley: starts with... Someone like a David Ignatius or someone who's very close to the security state kind of put out those trial balloons.

Kevin Maley: And I was actually surprised, you had talked about this earlier, the missile attack or drone attack on a Ukrainian village and the Ukrainians, Zelensky right away said it was a Russian attack. But it was, I had, there was a New York Times front page article that questioned that and said, I don't know, is it, you know, quoting all these people, like, it looks like it came from Ukraine and like the direction came from Ukraine.

Kevin Maley: So, [00:39:00] which I was shocked that the New York Times was reporting that felt like a shift in the tide. 

Liam Cosgrove: That's a great example because New York Times would have never published that a year ago. 

Kevin Maley: How do you think the election will impact this? And do you think there's any candidate Trump says if he gets elected, he'll end the war in, I think, 48 hours.

Kevin Maley: Do you think would matter who was in the white house? 

Liam Cosgrove: I mean, well, yeah, for sure. It does. It does. It would matter who's in the white house. I hope to God we are out of the war before then, cause that is a long time to be. Risking this nuclear brinksmanship and, and, and for the record, I actually do believe Trump would do that.

Liam Cosgrove: I, I worry and this is why I can't stand the Trump base. I just like don't think he's gonna win. I don't, I don't think, you know, that regardless of like, The actual voter fraud, which I did, I read one of the audits in, in Georgia, Fulton County, which apparently this group was granted a warrant and they were allowed to see the batches and, and, and look at the ballots and how they [00:40:00] were registered and everything.

Liam Cosgrove: And there actually was a ton of, of duplicate ballots in that audit. Which if you extrapolated it to the rest of the county and to the rest of Georgia, Trump actually could have won Georgia. So I, I just, I just get that out of the way to say like Trump's not, the whole election fraud thing is not totally BS.

Liam Cosgrove: I don't know if it's like 100 percent true, but then there's the you know, there's the whole Hunter Biden story and all the intelligence colluding to And then I'm reading right now the unspeakable by I think James Douglas, which is the book about the JFK assassination. So it's like, you know, Trump now, his whole platform right now is like revenge.

Liam Cosgrove: He's like campaigning on revenge. So the idea that Trump is going to win, there the, you know, the deep state, the powers that be, and the CIA, and the, you know, Pentagon, are just, they're just not going to let Trump win. And I think, it, it would, you know, I think we could literally see an assassination. I know Tucker [00:41:00] Carlson said this on Adam Carolla the other day, but I've thought it for a long time, like, you know.

Liam Cosgrove: I think he asked Trump 

Kevin Maley: about it too, in that 

Liam Cosgrove: Twitter interview. Oh, I didn't watch that one. But yeah, I, I just think like, I think that will literally I think that'll, that'll happen if it doesn't happen by some miracle. I actually do think Trump would end the war. I think Trump, But he, 

Kevin Maley: he had armed the, I mean, he went further than Obama in arming the Ukrainians.

Kevin Maley: No. A hundred percent correct. And I, and it was very much against Nord Stream. 

Liam Cosgrove: And, and I, and I think that's 'cause, and this is just why I can't like to, to me Vivek, even though people hate Vivek's Taiwan policy, but to me it's actually not that bad. 'cause it, he, he says he would You know, once we become semiconductor independent or whatever, we no longer have this hinging to Taiwan.

Liam Cosgrove: But that's why I think Vivek, if you're a Republican, is so much more attractive than Trump. Because like, one, he can actually win. And two, Trump demonstrated when he was in office that he was kind of a pushover and like, they, they made up this bullshit. Putin Trump narrative, but it got to him [00:42:00] and then he did things like that.

Liam Cosgrove: He did things like giving weapons to Ukraine. So he 

Kevin Maley: could come out and appoint John Bolton as his national, one of his national security 

Liam Cosgrove: advisers. Yeah, exactly. Trump like, you know, the Trump base just thinks he's like a total badass. But when you look at him in office, he was a massive pushover to kind of like the deep state.

Liam Cosgrove: Like he, he kept guys like Fauci and John Bolton in there. And just like, he wasn't much of it. Like he, he, he did a lot of placating when he was in there. And, and like, it's understandable. Cause like they were coming after him for the Zelensky phone call. They were coming after him for the Steele dossier.

Liam Cosgrove: They were coming after him for everything he said on, in the news. So it makes sense why he's like, Oh God, I could, I just placate these people some out. But I think you know, you really want someone who's just is going to stand their ground and, and not you know, placate these policies that are, that are getting us in these endless wars.

Liam Cosgrove: But I forget where we're going with that. Yeah. In terms of like, yeah, I mean, if anyone, if if, so I think if RFK, [00:43:00] which isn't happening, if the VEK, which isn't happening either, sadly, or Trump won. Yeah. I think we could get out of Ukraine in a day. Like I agree with Trump. I could do it in a day. I mean, it's, it just, it wouldn't even be hard.

Liam Cosgrove: And that's why it's so tragic. Like what's happening there. Cause it's, it's such a foolish war. You just let, you just let Crimea and the Donbass secede, boom, you're done. And luckily those regions actually want to secede anyways, even by US government polling. So it's, it's just the craziest war. It's just infuriating the people who support it.

Liam Cosgrove: And yeah, I mean, I think the bright side is kind of what we talked about earlier of like, These little breadcrumbs that are finally coming out, trial balloons as you called them. 

Kevin Maley: Just out of curiosity, going back, you mentioned you were reading a book on the JFK assassination. What, what's your take on that?

Liam Cosgrove: Oh, I mean, my take on that is that, is that the evidence is overwhelming that the CIA killed him. The CIA Was it, was it Oswald? Some 

Kevin Maley: of the Joint Chiefs. Like, what, [00:44:00] how do you see that? So, my, my theory on this is that, I'll just lay my cards on the table, is that Oswald had been a CIA asset who just kind of went rogue, he went a little nuts, he's probably, you know, tied to going against Cuba again or something like that, and then they just covered up, like, there was no directive from Johnson to kill Kennedy so that they could expand Vietnam, but it was more like, oh shit, this asset.

Kevin Maley: Went a little nutty. And so we're going to cover it up. And that's where you see a lot of the Warren commission stuff. But what is your, I, 

Liam Cosgrove: I I'm listening to this audio book and I don't I don't listen to like the, all the nitty gritty details. I just, so I don't know. I remember hearing, actually, there was some in this book, then the unspeakable that actually sort of, I just remember there were some Reporting about Johnson that kind of exonerated him like it actually made it seem like he didn't really fully know what was going on, but I just in terms of like who shot it, what I what I meant by that is like, I wasn't paying attention to like the angles of the grass, you know, and, you know, things like that.

Liam Cosgrove: And who did the shot and all that stuff. [00:45:00] So I don't know if Oswald did. I think you're right. I mean, he was clearly. Really deep in the military apparatus and was at that, you know, he was stationed at that U2 base where they had done some of the MKUltra stuff I think one of, one of the biggest red flags for the JFK assassination, one is the, is the x ray that was apparently fake, there was like a fake x ray that they released to the public to kind of hide the fact that the bullet went out the back of his head or whatever.

Liam Cosgrove: If that's true, that's obviously a huge red flag, but, but one that I know, Far better is that book Chaos, which is a, which is a fantastic book. I forget the guy's name. Oh, Tom O'Neill. Great book, like all original reporting by him. Very trustworthy guy who doesn't jump to conclusions and make assertions.

Liam Cosgrove: Which I love. When, when authors do that he, he talks about Jolly West, who's like the MKUltra doctor who experimented on people with, with LSD and stuff to kind of see if he could implant memories or do [00:46:00] even mind control and stuff like that. He goes and visits Jack Ruby, the guy who killed Oswald.

Liam Cosgrove: Jack Ruby had been assessed by, I think, five or six psychologists, psychiatrists after the shooting, and they all said he was, you know, pretty normal. Jolly West, the MKUltra doctor, goes to see him. Within 48 hours Jack Ruby has a psychotic break. He's like hallucinating that Jews are being burned all around him and stuff.

Liam Cosgrove: And to me, that's just like, to me, that's the smoking gun. It's like, they bring in the CIA. Dr. Hallucinogen guy to make this assassin go crazy. So he can't talk. So, you know, to me, that's The smoking gun of like the CIA is trying to cover something up and to your point, you know Maybe they're covering up this rogue assassin, but I I think they're I think it's very clear I mean how much Alan Dulles and these guys hated Kennedy There's a lot more evidence to that as well that I you know We could get into, but yeah, to [00:47:00] me, it looks like they killed him.

Liam Cosgrove: Just looks like the CIA killed him. Yeah. 

Kevin Maley: One big red flag for me that I have not ever been able to wrap my head around is Oswald, when he was supposedly a private citizen, went to live in the Soviet union at the height of the cold war for like two years or something, and then just moved back to the U S and it was fine.

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah, not only that, but they actually they actually gave him some government grants to get like, you know, his housing situation and stuff together and find him a job. So yeah, you know, the idea that like a guy who works at like a top secret YouTube base. Can have this super weird public defection where he's like, I'm gonna go give I think he said something like verbatim I'm gonna give secrets to the soviets and like one that they wouldn't kill a guy like that before he could even defect and then two that they would welcome him back with open arms It is absurd.

Liam Cosgrove: I think 

Kevin Maley: this makes no sense. Yeah. So just had a couple kind of broader questions for you as we get in the [00:48:00] final stretch. How do you keep up with the news? Where do you get your news that sort of informs your thinking? 

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah, well, so I do, I do try to read a good amount of the corporate media, which I think everybody should do with a very critical lens. I mean, I think you should read everything with a critical lens. I love I love Zero Hedge. I've always liked Zero Hedge. I got I used to be very into kind of the finance economic world.

Liam Cosgrove: Which Zero Hedge is, is very good on that stuff. I'll read I'll, I'll, I'll listen to a lot of stuff too, like I'll listen to Glenn Greenwald, I'll listen to Dave Smith you know, the Valuetainment podcast. Valuetainment's not too much, like, news packed into it. Oh, Dave DeCamp at AntiWar.

Liam Cosgrove: com is, is very good. He, he does these little succinct videos. That really helped me if I'm pressed for time when I'm going to a briefing. 

Kevin Maley: Yeah, he's got a daily podcast where he just kind of reads the headlines every morning. Yeah, I recommend 

Liam Cosgrove: that. Yeah, no, and it's very it's very dry, but it's very informative.

Liam Cosgrove: And that is If if you're concerned about the escalations I mean that [00:49:00] dave is right in that vein and he's always tracking that and so he's a really good resource for me when I go to the press briefings 

Kevin Maley: Who's influenced your journalism? , or who's influenced your political thinking?

Kevin Maley: That was kind of one of the other last questions I had for you. 

Liam Cosgrove: Oh, so my political thinking definitely Peter Schiff, who is like an economist libertarian. He really reignited I should have told us in the origin story, but he, so before I was really into politics or anything, and I talked about like working for my parents and learning about the laws in SF, but I listen, he, he was on Joe Rogan, which was about the only media I consumed in those days.

Liam Cosgrove: And it really just reignited all these like libertarian ideals and rationales. He, he, he really articulated them so well. And so that really reignited my interest in, in kind of the, the news and laws and how the world works. So he's huge. Glenn Greenwald is someone who I respect a lot a great reporter that, that author Tom O'Neill was very [00:50:00] impressive too.

Liam Cosgrove: Just reading that whole book, I mean that book I mentioned, Chaos, about, it's actually mostly about the Charles Manson murders, but it touches on CIA MKUltra stuff. You know, he spent like 15 years or something writing that book. Did really diligent reporting. So yeah, here and there, you know, there's little guys that come across, like, who I'm impressed by their, by their grunt work, but in that's kind of on the reporting side, but then on the political side definitely Peter Schiff's a big one.

Liam Cosgrove: Dave Smith, the libertarian comedian's a big one. Yeah. 

Kevin Maley: Liam it's been a really interesting discussion. I feel like it would be great to have you back on at some point to talk domestic issues. There might be a little more disagreement, but I think it would be a fun conversation.

Liam Cosgrove: Sure, man. Yeah. I'm, I'm always up for some good healthy disagreement and this was, this was fun. So yeah, happy to come back on. Yeah. Appreciate the invite. 

Kevin Maley: Absolutely. And we'll, we'll put your your Twitter handle in the show notes, but is there any other, how other, how else can people follow [00:51:00] you if they want to follow your work?

Liam Cosgrove: Just Twitter. Yeah. Just Twitter. And the only message I would leave people with is whoever's listening, whatever your job is, you know. Do what you can to avert this, like, crazy war policy we have, like, you know, heading into World War III. Just do whatever you can. I, I, I did what I could, and I surprisingly landed in these press briefings.

Liam Cosgrove: You have clearly started this podcast to speak out, but I would just encourage people, I don't know, whether it's, like, making signs. You know, educating people, writing to your local politician or whatever, just, just try to do something because, you know, we, we often don't realize like how good we have it in this world.

Liam Cosgrove: You know, especially when you think of the vast arc of human history, like even the poorest of the poor today, we have so much abundant luxury at our fingertips. We don't need to be throwing it away over like the Crimea and the Donbas. So I. That's what I would leave people with is just [00:52:00] just try to do something to avert this crazy path We're on and educate other people about it as 

Kevin Maley: well.

Kevin Maley: Yeah, and to that point thank you for all the work that you've done on that because I Will reiterate my agreement that I am scared shitless of nuclear war and I'm concerned that not enough people are because we will not survive Nuclear war, or if we do, the survivors will envy the dead .

Kevin Maley: Yeah, 

Liam Cosgrove: yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like, yeah, when you think of that, I mean, most of us in, well, not if you live in North America, you're probably, or if you live in the US, you're probably dead. And yeah, exactly. Especially if you live in 

Kevin Maley: DC. Yeah. I always think I, at least I'll probably die right away.

Kevin Maley: Because it will be a direct target. 

Liam Cosgrove: Yeah. But it's just, it's just even like, I mean, personally, it's like, we all have, you know, our loved ones and things we're giving up and then I, generally it's just like, what a waste. I mean, like how, like, look at how much humans have accomplished throughout thousands of years.

Liam Cosgrove: Like we're. We're this close to like [00:53:00] getting on Mars. You know, it's just, it's just really boneheaded crazy, unhinged people. A couple of them at the Pentagon and at Langley and at the White House who are like, you know, Perpetuating this stuff. And it's like, it doesn't need to happen this way. 

Kevin Maley: And for all the people who profess to claim so much about the Ukrainian people, it's a war, even if we don't go to nuclear war and it ends tomorrow, you'll have had tens of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians killed and maimed in horrific world war one style fighting where they're losing their limbs over what.

Kevin Maley: Yeah, 

Liam Cosgrove: for an outcome that could have been voluntarily negotiated in 2022. 

Kevin Maley: Yep. All right. Well, Liam, thank you again. Hugely appreciate it. 

Liam Cosgrove: Of course, Kevin. Yeah.